Herbs vs Dried Veggies - Food for thought?

[Claire D]

Now before anyone gets all excited this is just a discussion - I'm not suggesting people start feeding veg to chins.


Ok so the debate rumbles on & on & on about giving chins dried fruits & I think most sensible people who understand a little about hind gut fermentation know that sugar is bad for chinchillas. High sugar content is also bad for teeth........ (good sugar info thread here)


BUT many people are happy to feed their chins dried herbs (some of which can be dangerous if you are not aware of what they do, they can be detrimental if improperly mixed or give too many of one sort etc - Tanya might chime in on that one).
Whenever someone mentions vegetables & chins people go off like a rocket talking about bloat & diarrhoea - whilst no-one wants to kill their chin by giving them bloat the same blanket statements are also made for dried veggies ....... so this got me thinking (dangerous I know ) ..........


My question then, is quite simple:
What is the difference between feeding dried herbs to chins & feeding dried veggies?

My next question is:
Why do people feel it is ok to feed dried herbs but not dried veggies?

Bearing in mind that veggies are high in fibre, good for tooth grinding (like hay) & full of vitamins & minerals ...... here's an interesting article about the dried vegetable & hay diet -

http://www.chinchillas4life.co.uk/diet.html



One of the biggest problems I see with playing about with the diet of chinchillas is that we can be unintentionally messing with the calcium : phosphorus ratios, we can be adding in too many or too few vitamins & minerals & we actually know very little about what a chinchilla's diet really should be - the diets we currently use are based on "best guess" rather than on any proper scientific research - does it make a difference?
...............


Please discuss sensibly! :read:

 

[Tagna]

For me, I don't feed any herbs at all. I don't know enough about them and I don't think there has been a lot of study about them with chinchillas in general.

I know many people feed herbs and make their own herbal supplements but some herbs don't work well together and some people are giving a lot of diuretic herbs. I'm not sure what the long term issues of that would be but I don't give dried veggies or herbs.

I do speak with someone that has a lot of herbal training and I take her word for it on things. So I don't bother with herbs. My chins are fine without them.

 

[ticklechin]

I feed wheat grass, have done it for 10 years and the chins enjoy it as a treat during playtime. Its a fresh I guess you would call it veggie?

 

[Pikaia]

I don't feed herbs either. Wheat grass, Dawn? I am always on the lookout for things that are good to feed my chinnies. I wonder how much chins would like it...

 

[SusieJJ]

Speaking theoretically, with no knowledge of chinchilla physiology.. As you bring up the questions, I don't know what is wrong with feeding chinchillas dried veggies.

What is it that causes bloat? The water content of the veggies? If that's all it is, then why not feed dried veggies?

Personally, I try to stick to the same foods with my chinchillas as well as my dog.. I feel that they don't KNOW that there's all sorts of different foods out there, so why do we need to feed them to them. They're not missing out on anything and the potential to do more harm than good doesn't make it a sensible risk to take in my opinion.

My boyfriend will feed anything to the dog and it just frustrates me. He doesn't WANT your m&ms. They're bad for him. He doesn't need them. He eats high quality holistic food (when he's not overfeeding him JUNK), and he's not a human being who craves variability in his diet.

SIGH

that was my rant thrown in there

 

[Megan]

I do not feed herbs, veggies, or fruits. I am actually quite scared by the amount of people who are coming up with "natural" herb mixes and are then offering it for sale--and how many people are buying these.

I guess I just go tried and true... Pellets, Water, hay and a supplement once in a while. The new herb fads do not impress me, and there hasn't been enough trials done. I know my oat supplement is used on thounsands of animals long term, I know its safe. The herbs are fed to a few chins for a couple of months and then boom are being sold on the forums by random people...no thanks.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again I think this is why the health span of chins is dramatically shortened and a lot of "pet owners" that take this path loose thier animals before they are even 5 years old.

 

[Pikaia]

I did try giving my Chichi the Quality Mutation Chinchilla herbal salad. She didn't like it. I thought it might grow on her, but I tried a couple times and she won't have anything to do with it.

 

[ticklechin]

I tried a couple of herb mixes, big flop. The only supplement I tried and they liked was Ryersons, but now most are getting older and I am having weight gain issues so they only get hay and pellets,toys and wheat grass and lifeline as a snack before going to work.

 

[moon]

I feed hay, Purina Show Chow, fresh filtered water, and an oat supplement once in a while. That's it. I did grow some wheat grass and give a few pieces for treats here and there, and they love it! I would caution anyone who decides to try this though, to only feed a few blades of the grass - not a handful like hay.

 

[mishellyshel]

I use herbs. I researched and actually consulted with Tanya before I gave my chins any of the herbs. I mix several "basic" herbs with some flowers like hibiscus & rose petals. also bee pollen & chamomile. also in my mix is alfalfa & timothy hay dust and old fashioned oats & crushed rosehips. so as you can see there is a lot of different items. i give each of my chins about 1 teaspoon each night. because there are so many things in there they really dont get much of one thing. the only other treat they all get is 1/2 shredded wheat. and 1 of my chins gets an organic goji berry or small piece of papaya.
special treats for them are the occasional chin cookie or oat tops.
not all my chins like all the herbs/flowers in my mix......some leave behind what they dont like. my dental chin doesnt like the crushed rosehips, my BV doesnt like the chamomile flowers. so i just toss what they dont like.
i also dont sell my mix and i feel that what i am giving them is safe and researched. i dont really try anything strange......just the few basics.

 

[RDZCRanch]

I would think that it's not the water content in vegetables that causes bloat but rather the amount and types of oligosaccharides. For humans, any undigested oligosaccharides act as food for intestinal flora. Depending on the type of flora feeding on it, it can cause gas. I have personally eaten dried vegetables and fresh and I don't notice a difference in less gas from eating dried veggies.

Here is an abstract on an experiment where they tested the effects of drying on oligosaccharides in fruits and vegetables. According to them, there was no difference in the amount after being dried.
http://www.abap.co.in/screening-and-estimation-pre-biotic-oligosaccharides-fruits-and-vegetables

Very interesting topic though, Claire. I don't think a lot of the owners that come to the forum stop to think about what they are buying and feeding their chins as long as it's from a chin approved site and says chin safe. I personally don't feed herbs, fruits, nuts, veggies, etc. because the health of my animals comes first and the only animals I've seen live past 20 years are the ones on ranches that just had feed, hay, water and possibly some oats.

 

[Pikaia]

Very interesting topic though, Claire. I don't think a lot of the owners that come to the forum stop to think about what they are buying and feeding their chins as long as it's from a chin approved site and says chin safe. I personally don't feed herbs, fruits, nuts, veggies, etc. because the health of my animals comes first and the only animals I've seen live past 20 years are the ones on ranches that just had feed, hay, water and possibly some oats.

I never thought twice about buying the herb supplements. That is because they were from suppliers that were approved on this forum. Plus, there were some ads in the "supplies for sale" section. I thought if they weren't 100% safe, the forum would not allow them to be posted.

 

[Chintastic!]

I dont give any herbs anymore. I used to buy a chinny salad, they loved it but it was expensive so I didnt buy it again. I stick to lots of sticks. Grape vines are like crack here. I just rotate the sticks they get and they seem happy. Maybe once a month(or less) they will get a cheerio or rose hip. I do give a small amount of the ryerson supplement, which is a huge hit. Even then they just get a pinch every 4 days or so.

I think with the veggies we also dont realize how much sugar is in that tiny piece you would give them. We think of veggies, the first thought is not sugar because its almost nothing for us to ingest. Just think if the average chin is 600g, and the average human is 150lbs.(68040g) then one gram to them is like a quarter pound to us(113.4g). Granted most treats we give are not a gram but just a thought to relate our size to theirs. There are .3g of sugar per 1g of dried carrot, a raisin has .59g and papya has .5g. whether or not that means anything to anyone I dont know.

 

[Stackie]

I never thought twice about buying the herb supplements. That is because they were from suppliers that were approved on this forum. Plus, there were some ads in the "supplies for sale" section. I thought if they weren't 100% safe, the forum would not allow them to be posted.

While we do try to keep an eye on things in the classifieds to be sure there isn't anything (known to be) unsafe being sold, there is a "buyer beware" policy in place here at CnH. Basically, CnH can not be held responsible if someone buys something through our classifieds that is harmful to your pet.

The herbs are definitely a buyer beware situation. There just isn't much known about them. You as a buyer and pet owner need to do your research and use your best judgement when buying things for your pets. Just like in a pet store, other online stores, etc.

 

[Megan]

I never thought twice about buying the herb supplements. That is because they were from suppliers that were approved on this forum. Plus, there were some ads in the "supplies for sale" section. I thought if they weren't 100% safe, the forum would not allow them to be posted.

People cannot monitor 100% what is listed on others websites or classifieds. What is considered safe? Something that might be used by a few owners for a year or so on less then ten animals per owner? What about long term effects? Several years down the line? What will these herbs do in the long run? We don't know..and I won't risk it with my herd. We don't know if they are, as clair said putting things out or whack (vitamins etc).

As tab pointed out and I mentioned earlier I honestly think there is a reason why pet owners are losing their animals so young and ranchers have animals that are well over 15+ in their herds.

 

[Pikaia]

Yeah, I know you guys can't monitor everything. But when Quality Mutation Chinchillas, Essentia and several other sellers here on the forum sell herbs.. I don't know, I thought it would be a no brainer. I guess each person needs to make the decision they feel comfortable doing. No store can do this for you..

I have noticed too, that along with my chichi not liking the herbal salad, she doesn't like rosehips either! She will take it and then drop it everytime. LOL. On the other hand, she LOVES chinny cookies and oats.

 

[Pikaia]

As tab pointed out and I mentioned earlier I honestly think there is a reason why pet owners are losing their animals so young and ranchers have animals that are well over 15+ in their herds.

Yes, Meghan. I totally agree with you and Tab. It's just like a human eating fattening and sweet foods all the time. They will die of a heart attack or some other ailment earlier in life, versus someone who lives to be 85-90 years old..

 

[Claire D]

I would think that it's not the water content in vegetables that causes bloat but rather the amount and types of oligosaccharides. For humans, any undigested oligosaccharides act as food for intestinal flora. Depending on the type of flora feeding on it, it can cause gas.

Bearing in mind we are discussing hind gut fermenters which require a very high fibre diet (hence the new marketing term being used on herbivore foods now: "Fibrevore") .......... as well as the potential oligosaccharide effects, the extra fluid will also have an effect on the gut of a chinchilla - they are designed to eat a high fibre, low nutrient, barren, dry diet so if you give them a sudden intake of wet foods you will give them diarrhoea so it's a double whammy on the chin's gut.

Another point to consider for those with chins which drink a lot of water - it is worth considering how much sugar is in their diet - an animal (or human) with a high blood glucose will drink more & pee more - they are classic signs of developing diabetes ........ just something else to ponder.
If you give your chin sweet foods & it drinks a lot of water, cut out the sweet stuff.


Let me also throw this into the mix: herbivores eat grass & other veggies, right? If you think about some of the big herbivores like cows, horses, elephants. They all fart; a lot............

Very interesting topic though, Claire.

Isn't it?


I know I am playing devil's advocate with this thread but I am doing so to get people thinking. We often see knee-jerk reactions & blanket statements made but unless we think through the reasons why things are not acceptable or might be bad for our chins, it's a bit like the blind leading the blind, parroting what we've heard with no logic behind it.

 

[Tagna]

I have noticed too, that along with my chichi not liking the herbal salad, she doesn't like rosehips either! She will take it and then drop it everytime. .

I give my chins the cut and sifted rosehips, they won't touch the whole ones.

With regards to people selling herbs, you have to do what you feel comfortable with. I personally don't mess with herbs. I would love to find someone that has been schooled with herbs and their use with animals to learn more. I just haven't had time! I'm not even sure what courses are out there with herb use and animals, especially chinchillas. I think a lot of people depend on google to learn things and I would love to be able to speak with someone in person about herbs. It's an interesting topic but even then I'm not sure I would use them.

 

[Pikaia]

I give my chins the cut and sifted rosehips, they won't touch the whole ones.

With regards to people selling herbs, you have to do what you feel comfortable with. I personally don't mess with herbs. I would love to find someone that has been schooled with herbs and their use with animals to learn more. I just haven't had time! I'm not even sure what courses are out there with herb use and animals, especially chinchillas. I think a lot of people depend on google to learn things and I would love to be able to speak with someone in person about herbs. It's an interesting topic but even then I'm not sure I would use them.

HMM! Maybe I should get them soft cut and sifted rosehips. I thought that may be the problem. She kinda acts like, "What the heck is this thing?" LOL.

I would love to learn more about herbs as well, but until we are absolutely sure they are safe for chinchillas- I will probably stay away from them.