Breeders Selling to Petstores

Amphy64 said:

Well, one is sitting on my bed demanding skritches.

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One male. This year alone, my standard lines have already given me five standard males. These are high quality, pure standard males and I'll be lucky if I can sell one. I had somebody call because they wanted a black velvet along with a violet. The only way I could get them interested in taking a standard male instead was to offer one for free. If I wholesale, I get between $25-$40 per standard male and in reality that is a heck of a lot more than $0.

Amphy64 said:

I do agree that standards, especially males, can be harder to home, I've heard that from several breeders (my chin's breeder also told me that beige males are a bit harder to home than other mutations). Still, if people will buy them from the petshop, they'd buy them from the original breeder too, surely - most pet owners seem to have standard greys.
Could awareness be the main issue, would it make it easier if breeders advertised more? Perhaps they could arrange with a petstore for the petstore to refer anyone wanting a chinchilla to them, the breeder providing the store with up-to-date information (and photos if possible) on the animals they have available. The petstore could then receive a commission on the sale of any animals made through a referral from them (the breeder would still make more than if they sold directly to a petstore. The commission would have to be enough to make it worth the petstore's while, also taking into account they would then not have to house or care for the animals themselves). Breeder's directories, chin people attending other small animal shows (not necessarily taking chins, just info., I think that's something the NCS is trying to do. We have regional secretaries but maybe we should have a directory too, hmm - thanks to the internet that kind of thing can so easily be up to date), anything like that could help breeders find homes for animals.

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I spent many years advertising in the same areas as a backyard breeder that lived down the street from me. I usually had standards and a few of the basic mutations available since I typically don't breed for multiple mutation colors. My prices were lower, my awards and background are posted online for all to see. The pictures of my animals showed healthier, fluffier animals. Yet, the BYB with more "fun" colors, ratty and greasy unhealthy chinchillas, and higher prices sold her babies faster than she could produce them. It has nothing to do with awareness. I have some friends that get business from being listed on breeder directories online...and others that don't get any business. I've been to pet expos and basically chased out for being an "evil" breeder. Pet expos are for rescues. We also have a chinchilla breeder that also breeds guinea pigs. She gives information to people at the guinea pig shows and none of them are interested in anything other than their guinea pigs.

Amphy64 said:

I think the most important thing is that prospective new owners get the right information. If a breeder who sells to a petshop can make sure the petshop will give that, then that's not so bad. Sure, they may ignore it, but at least then they're more informed - I really don't think it's in the best interests of chin or new owner if someone buys one without knowing the lifespan, for instance, they may still manage fine but it'd be a bit of a shock if you didn't realise that you just bought an animal that will outlive the average dog!
Of course a screening process can't enable a breeder to be totally sure a chin is going to a good home. However, it does allow them to be sure an owner at least knows how to care for a chinchilla, and to rule some people out. I appreciated being asked questions by my chin's breeder, it showed me he cared where his animal's ended up, if he hadn't asked me questions I would have been considerably more reluctant to buy a chin from them.

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This is simple education, not screening. Every breeder I've ever been to, even the BYB's educate people on what THEY think is correct husbandry and what not. I give a care sheet with every chinchilla, I have listings on my website for safe chinchilla vendors, I tell everyone who calls me about chinchillas everything I can think of about chinchillas. It doesn't make the slightest difference how well you educate someone. You cannot guarantee they are listening or will follow any of the advice. I helped a friend get two 4 week old babies from a guy that was selling them as "weaned" and the entire time I was there he went on and on about what I HAVE to feed them and HAVE to do to keep them healthy. I nodded and said "of course" several times and pretended to pay attention when I had no inclination of following even one bit of advice he gave me. When I was on the other side of his front door with the babies, I laid into him about proper care and selling babies and got a door slammed in my face. People can know the right way to do things, but they want to do it THEIR way because no one likes to be wrong.

Amphy64 said:

No, since chinchillas are kept as pets I do appreciate the knowledge gained about the species, even relatively recently a lot has and continues to be learned. However, it's maybe better to be realistic - if I understand correctly many ranchers were (and sometimes still are) very anti-pet. The (protected) wild chinchilla wasn't taken out of it's habitat so we could have them as pets (not automatically in the interests of the species anyway).

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You are mistaken. Most ranchers are not against pet people anymore. Once upon a time it was frowned upon and people were even threatened with having their ECBC memberships canceled if they were found to be selling on the pet market. The pelt market took a dive though and the ranchers found they could sell chins as pets for a much higher fee. That is the only reason the pet chinchilla market ever took off in the first place in the states. Money. That's also the reason chinchillas continue to be sold in pet stores.

I also have to agree with Dawn. The chins that end up in rescues are the ones that didn't cost the person much money to begin with. The people constantly looking for cheaper and cheaper chins or saying "I want this kind of chin but can only pay $X so what do you have?" are the people that are impulsive and tend to stop caring for the chins after the initial excitement wears off. There are a lot of scenarios for rescue chinchillas, but not many of them come from pet stores. Most of my rescues come from people who got a cheap or free chin off CL or from a BYB.

I have a few chins that came from petstores as my pets and some that have been surrendered that came from petstores. One of my bv girls was bought from a petstore the week before she was given to me.

Sometimes the ones surrendered have come in with TONS of luggage. FN, saucers, etc. I think it just depends on the person. Some people surrender because they have no choice. I have 2 males being surrendered on Saturday and they are coming with a FN, saucer and a playset with playpen and who knows what else.

Perfect example of an impulse buy:
My husband gots an email from someone, literally just got it, and was in the process of responding to it when he gets another email from the same person saying "Oh, never mind, we got one at (insert local pet store's name here)."

That pet store is literally a minute down the road from us, and we had a lot of animals available at the time, too.

RDZCRanch said:

One male. This year alone, my standard lines have already given me five standard males. These are high quality, pure standard males and I'll be lucky if I can sell one. I had somebody call because they wanted a black velvet along with a violet. The only way I could get them interested in taking a standard male instead was to offer one for free. If I wholesale, I get between $25-$40 per standard male and in reality that is a heck of a lot more than $0.

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Yep, just the one, but I do know my chin's breeder also sold all the other standard males he had that year (my boy was the prettiest, of course! ). Of course, it's going to be easier for relatively small breeders (about 40+ chins in this case) which I guess is something which breeders consider when increasing the size of their herd, and it'll vary depending on the area they're located too. What I'm thinking is, if the petstore manages to sell on the chins sold to them by the breeder (which presumably they do or they wouldn't buy them, though a petstore may be able to keep the chins longer than the breeder which could help), maybe there are ways these buyers could be encouraged to buy directly from the breeder instead (allowing the breeder the chance to screen and offer correct care information). If they're the same chins, it can't be just that people won't buy standard males.

RDZCRanch said:

I spent many years advertising in the same areas as a backyard breeder that lived down the street from me. I usually had standards and a few of the basic mutations available since I typically don't breed for multiple mutation colors. My prices were lower, my awards and background are posted online for all to see. The pictures of my animals showed healthier, fluffier animals. Yet, the BYB with more "fun" colors, ratty and greasy unhealthy chinchillas, and higher prices sold her babies faster than she could produce them. It has nothing to do with awareness. I have some friends that get business from being listed on breeder directories online...and others that don't get any business. I've been to pet expos and basically chased out for being an "evil" breeder. Pet expos are for rescues. We also have a chinchilla breeder that also breeds guinea pigs. She gives information to people at the guinea pig shows and none of them are interested in anything other than their guinea pigs.

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That must have been really frustrating. Yes, a lot of breeders, like you, do advertise. Maybe (for some breeders) advertising in more different places would help, say, online, in local newspapers 'Pets for sale' sections, and also petshops here often have an advertising board for pets for sale, don't know if that's the case in the US too. Not a guarantee of it being easier to find homes, but can't hurt. I do see people asking, very often, where they can find a breeder, and a lot of the time it doesn't even occur to people that they even could go to a breeder for a chin, so there maybe is a slight issue with awareness, although it's also sometimes that people just aren't very good at finding information online, not being that experienced with computers.

Oh, sounds like pet expos in the US may be different then, ours aren't usually just for rescues. There's also general small animal shows (I think the NCS may have been thinking of doing a stand at the Harrogate one next year, which is the biggest over here) - you're right it would be hard to interest people who came just to see, say, the guinea pigs, but the general public often attend this type of show just as a day out.
That's something I wanted to ask as I was curious about, in the US do the general public/pet owners go to chin shows? They don't really here, they do to hamster shows and things (even just to look, as a day out, not necessarily wanting to buy a hamster/other animal on the day) but not really chin ones, maybe as chins are seen as a bit more specialist.

RDZCRanch said:

This is simple education, not screening. Every breeder I've ever been to, even the BYB's educate people on what THEY think is correct husbandry and what not. I give a care sheet with every chinchilla, I have listings on my website for safe chinchilla vendors, I tell everyone who calls me about chinchillas everything I can think of about chinchillas. It doesn't make the slightest difference how well you educate someone. You cannot guarantee they are listening or will follow any of the advice. I helped a friend get two 4 week old babies from a guy that was selling them as "weaned" and the entire time I was there he went on and on about what I HAVE to feed them and HAVE to do to keep them healthy. I nodded and said "of course" several times and pretended to pay attention when I had no inclination of following even one bit of advice he gave me. When I was on the other side of his front door with the babies, I laid into him about proper care and selling babies and got a door slammed in my face. People can know the right way to do things, but they want to do it THEIR way because no one likes to be wrong.

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Yes, I agree, just think it's important, whether the chin is sold by a petshop or a breeder, that new owners get the right information right from the start (maybe breeders selling to petshops could take a look at the shops care sheet and offer advice? I bet a lot already do that if it's possible). If someone is looking for their first chin and cares about taking care of the animal correctly, then do you think they'd be more likely to listen than not? I know you can't guarantee they would (though if it became clear they indeed weren't listening, breeders can obviously then screen them out, not that that helps if people aren't honest with the breeder).
When people have ignored me (including a rescue that gave the chins, even youngsters, peanuts), it's usually been that they're already convinced they know about how to care for chins, and don't realise knowledge about them may have moved on. A totally new owner might not have so many ideas about that, so maybe they're likely to accept what they first learn?

RDZCRanch said:

You are mistaken. Most ranchers are not against pet people anymore.

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Oh, I know most don't feel that way any more, just, as you say, it used to be that way. )


Ach, that must have been irritating, chinsNdobermans. As starleomach also says, people do impulse buy chins, even though you wouldn't expect it with a relatively expensive animal. Same is true for giant rabbit breeds (similarly expensive), rescues are having more of them brought in since pet shops have starting selling them, and they're not that easy to find suitable homes for.

You'd be surprised how many people impulse buy expensive pets like chinchillas. And while you'd think that someone who just spent $150 or more on a chinchilla would want to care for them well, it seems like once you've spent that much, ignorance and convenience kick in and make people cut corners in care. Besides, if you're making an impulse purchase at a pet store, what are the chances that you're going to choose a chin-safe cage (or that one is even available at the store).

If anything, one impulse leads to another. People think, "Ooh, let's get these fun treats that have a chinchilla on the front, because they'll love that. And the exercise ball and the colorful feed with super-fun treats in it!" They may want to care for their pet, but it doesn't count for anything if they don't know anything, and petstores are a breeding ground for ignorance.

Yeah, I've seen quite alot of that too. You would think people would be at least somewhat wise with there money and not go spend it on some animal they know nothing about...My local pet store carries puppies, and they are $600 and up, and people just go there and say awww they are so cute! I want this one, and then even though they just put all that money into a dog, the dog ends up at the shelter, or even on craigslist where they are trying to get there money back out of the dog. People do not take the time to research anything nowadays. They just think oh, this pet is cute and can't be that hard to care for! Sorry, got a little off topic there.

It makes me quit upset! I have to tell you milos story I got Milo from my local pet store soldans. When I first got there I was looking at all the chinchillas they had and just fell in love with her! She was so calm and sweet. I got her home and set up her cage and everything. A week later she started walking in circles, tilting her head. I took her to the vets and they told me that she had a inner ear infection. Gave me baytril. I ordered some Critical Care to give her because of the baytril making her not want to eat. She got better, then she cam down with a eye infection 2 times, got terrimycin eye cream for her.. It went away. Then 2 weeks later she came down with URI. Got that tooken care of.. She was really sick chinchilla, sicker than normal. I came home one day and found her dead in her cage. I checked in on her that same morning and evening and she was doing just fine, eating and drinking. Needless to say, I will never get a chin from a pet store again.

The pet store that I was kicked out of takes in chinchillas that have been bread by people. They are the "mistakes, accidents or the I did not know" Then they sell them for over 200$ each. I went in there and they had a treat food in the cage for the chinchilla by the reptile section that is super warm the poor baby was sleeping in it's dust bath! I asked if they leave the dust bath in there all the time. They said yes he likes it... God forbid you try to help them with anything. I get a remark such as "Do you work here I do not think so. We go through a training course so I know what I am doing"

You want to know where I wana shove their "training course"...

I just wanted to touch back up on what Tabitha said so many months ago. There is a reason that most ranchers were against pet people. Not that chins are bad pets, or anything like that. It was/is primarily that the first animals breeders pet out are culls. Something they're not going to put into breeding due to flaws. I would bet that at least half (and I'm sure this is a low estimate) of all people who buy a "pet" end up breeding it at least once. So that perpetuates the poor qualities that animal had. Multiply that by 15 million people who don't care what they're breeding and consider what just happened to the over all quality of the domestic chinchilla.

But Nicole, all those pet chins and rescues that are pregnant are GOT that way, over and over again my new pet is pregnant, pet owners don't breed pet store chins or rescues they just GET them. See that makes it better, and yes that is snarky coming in loud and clear.

I agree with you both but I also know of people who puts males and females together and hope they dont have babies. I dont get what goes through their head.

My house is a female chinchilla only house. I am a pet owner but I will not bring a male chinchilla into my house, because male + female = kits :tease:

Those would be the same people who think brothers and sisters can't mate because that would be icky, Blah.

Dawn, I did forget about those "long term" pregnancy issues... like the ones who don't show it for like two years...

Allie, those are the same people who have 6 kids and don't understand how it's happening, and generally those are the same people who are taking a toll our government programs. When you have three kids and they're all "surprises" you think you'd start figuring out how it works... unfortunately hope has not yet been proven as an effective form of birth control...

EMSChins said:

Just curious how do you turn a potential owner down when you are not satisfied that they will make good owners? I have often wondered how awkward this will be when it inevitably happens to me?

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Easy...I make it clear from the start that I don't sell to just anyone and I have to approve them before I'd even consider sending a chinchilla home with them. The top three reasons I refuse people are lack of knowledge, not in a good situation for a long term pet, or they think chinchillas are going to cuddle with them on the couch and while they watch TV. If I don't think its the right fit, I just tell them "I don't feel you have the knowledge to properly care for a chinchillas at this time" or "I don't feel your household is a suitable place for a chinchillas at this time" or "Chinchillas are not the type of animal you're hoping them to be and I don't think you will be happy with one as a pet". Depending on the situation, I might recommend a rat as a pet or I might suggest they wait to get a pet until they are in a more stable situation (usually kids/teenagers/college students) and then wish them the best in life. Then I usually end contact with them.

Of the people I have refused, I've only gotten very negative responses twice. When I didn't play along (and didn't tell them what I really wanted to say) they just went away after a short while. Most people have been polite or just don't respond. Some even thank me for being honest. I think some of them knew already that they really shouldn't get a chinchilla. Others I'm sure just turned to craigslist or pet stores.

On the pet stores topic, I've no need to sell to pet stores. When an animal doesn't sell at my house its usually not do to lack of interest...its more me being picky about finding a good home. I've got nothing against pet stores as a whole, but most of the small stores do not properly house or care for the animals in their store. The mom and pop pet stores around here don't usually stay in business long anyhow though. One store owner I talked to said she always lost money on live animal sales because she couldn't move them fast enough so ended up paying more to feed and house them (and wages/time spent cleaning cages).

Riven said:

Dawn, I did forget about those "long term" pregnancy issues... like the ones who don't show it for like two years...

Allie, those are the same people who have 6 kids and don't understand how it's happening, and generally those are the same people who are taking a toll our government programs. When you have three kids and they're all "surprises" you think you'd start figuring out how it works... unfortunately hope has not yet been proven as an effective form of birth control...

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I think people should not be able to mate unless they pass a test :thumbsup:

I have yet to sell to a pet store but I guess never say never. If there was a good mom and pop shop that came to me and asked if they could feature a chin from me and then they will legitimately screen homes then I might be ok with that!

Terbear24 said:

I have yet to sell to a pet store but I guess never say never. If there was a good mom and pop shop that came to me and asked if they could feature a chin from me and then they will legitimately screen homes then I might be ok with that!

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i wish that was the case, but those are probably 1 in a 1,000,000 .i could never sell any of my chins to a pet store. especially knowing that the pet stores dont take proper care of them, and that anyone who can spend $200 can just get them on impulse...I will agree, we bought our chins on impulse and i see soooo many things that we did wrong. I know what can happen because obviously we did it to.

Pet stores or people off the forums or CL or your mothers best friend, when you sell chins people can lie so when that chin leaves your hands its all bets off. Either keep everything you produce or you are taking chances when it leaves your home, no matter what amount of vetting you do there are no guarantees. So why not sell to pet stores since its all a crapshoot.