Herbs vs Dried Veggies - Food for thought?

I know, Meanie. But it's so spoken "no fruits and veggies" that most of us don't even think twice about not giving those. Also, many think of flowers, stems, and other things that make up herbs as "plant" and fruits/veggies as "food".

I know when I'm thinking of fruits and veggies, my first thought isn't that it's a plant, it's that it's something to eat, while I wouldn't think of hibiscus petals, rosehips, dandelion stems, etc as food.

Ash, so you feed chins things that are not food? Lol, I know what you mean, but I think you're just supporting Claire's point a bit.

As for me, I am no nutritionist. I rely a lot on what I hear here in the forums and from other ranchers and breeders. The "no fruit no veggies" mantra is so ingrained into my mind that I never even stopped to consider it. I may point out that I always considered the fruits and veggies to be fresh when I heard that (raisins had their own NO NO mantra), such as what people happily feed guinea pigs, rats and rabbits - and it is the moisture content that we as chinchilla owners were to avoid. Herbs, the ones being used in chin products, are traditionally dried, so yea I did consider them separately.

However, I just went poking about the USDA nutrient database and would like to point out that carbs convert into sugar, and shreddies are 78% carb by volume, cheerios 74%, oats 66% and wheat germ 51%. This may be why some chins get bloat from wheat products. I'm sure oats would do the same if over fed. Neither dried herbs nor fresh veggies are anywhere near that high in carbs.

Still, I stick to hay, pellets and water. I do also use Ryerson supplement with crushed/sifted rosehips mixed in, but at one teaspoon a week I don't think there's much more I can cut back on that without eliminating it, so I'm not worried about that carb content (considering even the Ryersons feed more of it than I do). I also grow and dry my own comfrey, which is an herb long used by ranchers to feed sick chins that won't eat pellets. I have not had occasion to use it yet, though. Other than that, just a twig a week of apple wood, and that's it. No fruit, no veggies, no other herbs or wheat, no lifeline or flower salad. I don't even do 1/2 apple juice for new moms anymore.

mishalaa said:

but I think you're just supporting Claire's point a bit.

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I have a point?

However, I just went poking about the USDA nutrient database and would like to point out that carbs convert into sugar, and shreddies are 78% carb by volume, cheerios 74%, oats 66% and wheat germ 51%. This may be why some chins get bloat from wheat products. I'm sure oats would do the same if over fed. Neither dried herbs nor fresh veggies are anywhere near that high in carbs.

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Good points - let me throw this in to the mix too then........
Raisins/dried fruits have far higher concentrations of simple sugars (fructose) & very little fibre when compared to the complex carbs of shredded wheat, cheerios, oats etc. This means the sugars are broken down quicker & absorbed quicker, in higher concentrations than complex carbs - this leads to a raise in blood glucose levels & a larger increase in "food" for gut bacteria (especially the 'bad' bacteria) early on in the digestive process.
The digestion of a particular carbohydrate in the gastrointestinal tract depends upon the complexity of the carb's molecular structure - the more complex it is, the harder the digestive system must work to break it down in order to absorb it into the bloodstream.
It is perhaps this which makes raisins far more likely to lead to bloat (since the sugar is released early on in the gut & is readily absorbed) than a complex carb which takes longer to digest down to sugars, especially if we bear in mind that chinchillas eat large quantities of very complex carbs & cellulose which is practically impossible to digest.
Interestingly, chin pellets in the UK contain some form of wheat or other complex carbs.

Just the point that we ought to think about what we feed or don't feed.

And thanks for the elaboration on carbs. However, don't carbs begin to digest in the mouth via saliva (hence that sweet taste while chewing a cracker), and are further broken down in the stomach, meaning they begin breaking down much sooner in the digestive tract than sugars? Perhaps they have time to convert to sugar before reaching the hindgut? I don't know, like I said, I'm no nutritionist! I appreciate this being debated.

I also wanted to bring up that in the jul/aug issue of the MCBA magazine, there was an article that listed 30 different formulas for supplement used by ranchers. The article was a reprint and didn't say when the original survey was done, so I don't know how old these formulas are - nor more importantly how successful they were. A lot of them list Pervinal and Pablum, which I had never heard of and assume aren't used today? Others used beets, a couple used cornmeal, one used V-8 juice - suggesting vegetables have been fed in the past. Again, I don't know the outcome of these supplements.

It is rather interesting how many more herbal supplements and "safe" herbs are being sold in the classifieds now, than there was when I first got into chinchillas over 3 years ago.

I won't risk feeding dried fruits or veggies because of the sugar content, and also, it's been so firmly implanted in my head "no fruits, no veggies."

I admit, I do buy an herbal supplement, but it is given very sparingly. I also see the same herbs being sold by another person who has apparently done a lot of research work concerning herbs and chinchillas.

I used to feed ryerson's supplement, which has a lot of oats in it. A while back, I heard that even oats, if fed too much/too often would start to leech calcium out of their system. At that point, I cut back and weaned them off of it. We've gone to just the occasional cheerio once a week maybe. I think with anything that's supplemental to the diet, whether it be safe treats, supplements, what-have-you, everything should be in moderation.

mishellyshel said:

I use herbs. I researched and actually consulted with Tanya before I gave my chins any of the herbs. I mix several "basic" herbs with some flowers like hibiscus & rose petals. also bee pollen & chamomile. also in my mix is alfalfa & timothy hay dust and old fashioned oats & crushed rosehips. so as you can see there is a lot of different items. i give each of my chins about 1 teaspoon each night. because there are so many things in there they really dont get much of one thing. the only other treat they all get is 1/2 shredded wheat. and 1 of my chins gets an organic goji berry or small piece of papaya.
special treats for them are the occasional chin cookie or oat tops.
not all my chins like all the herbs/flowers in my mix......some leave behind what they dont like. my dental chin doesnt like the crushed rosehips, my BV doesnt like the chamomile flowers. so i just toss what they dont like.
i also dont sell my mix and i feel that what i am giving them is safe and researched. i dont really try anything strange......just the few basics.

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would u give me some things i could give my girls that they might like? (i would like to be able to make them at home so some dried herbs or flowers that r safe 4 chins) . thanks

An oat top or two a night contains far more fiber and fewer sugars/saccharides than most of the cereals used as treats. That said, each of my boys gets a pinch of non-pellets-- maybe a single rose petal, a chamomile flower, and an oat top-- every other night. They'd pick up a lot more non-grass than that in their wild diet, and each kind of herb offers different trace minerals and vitamins that aren't necessarily found in a standardized pellet diet, depending on where and how they were grown.

Another thing to consider is that the artificial sources of vitamins and minerals often used in commercial diets yield less *usable* nutrients than the natural sources thereof. If I'm going to give a treat outside of the pellets and hay staple, mostly as training or enrichment in my case, I don't want it to be completely empty calories. Humans have the bad habit of eating b/c we enjoy it, and pet owners seem to pass that on to our animals; but fundamentally, food's function is to nourish and keep us healthy, so in my mind, small amounts of herbs are a better treat than a Cheerio because they contain more usable nutrients.

The reason I still don't feed vegetables is based on the amount of sugars in most of them (carrots and beets are particularly high in sugars, and they're very common dried veggies in pet foods) and the amount of water. One fully dried, crumbling, flower petal will encourage my shy chin to have contact with my hands w/out bombarding his system with the amount of sugar or carbs in a half a shredded wheat square.

my chins love rose petals, peppermint, hibiscus flowers (crushed), chamomile flowers, bee pollen, crushed rosehips, i mix in some old fashioned oats and alfalfa & timothy hay dust. just a pinch. not all of them like everything in there. i mix a few other items in but the ones i listed are the basics.