New Recessive White Mutation?

RDZCRanch said:

The debate is whether or not this is even a recessive. The line hasn't been worked with enough to know if this is just a re-occurrence of the wilson white or if it is something else. If you notice, it is not listed as a recessive white...the recessive is simply speculation since nobody knows very much about the line.

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Well, it's highly unlikely that it is a re-occurance of the Wilson white... or three reoccurances, actually A spontaneous mutation that leads to a surviving animal is pretty rare. All three of the original pair's kits were white. With mutations (not just color-related but other mutations in the genetic code which do not have any noticable phenotypic effect... or even mutations that cause an abnormality so that the zygote doesn't correctly form or make it to term) occuring so rarely, I highly doubt that the white reoccured three times in all of that pairing's offspring. Given that the male did not produce whites with the other standard females he mated with, I would guess that it is most likely a recessive gene. Only time will tell though.

It could be a dominant gene, if it is genetic. It could be something about the dam's physiology (in utero) that caused this phenotype (I'm not even comfortable calling it a mutation yet) during development, which is what I'm leaning toward given 100% of her offspring so far have been white. But until she starts producing standards, or the white offspring have a second and third generation, we won't know.

I can see two reasons instantly this "mutation" could matter if it does turn out to be a genetic situatiion, which I feel it is...if it was a physiological issue I think we would have seen it before now.

First,if it did prove to be a new recessive mutation, there would then be a chance for new liked traits that also caused by the mutation. Mutations go far beyond color, and that is something the chin industry has never been good with understanding.

Secondly, it it happens to be a strange expression of our common white genes which I already stated is my current belief, test breedings should then be done to confirm that a lethal factor is involved. I have theorized for years now that genetic flukes can and will lead to whites and blacks without lethal factor, and this could be just the case.

In this day and age a color mutation is worthless outside of novelty factor, the industry does not have the resources to market a new color like it once did...if this chin was pink with green polkadots that story would be the same, but linked traits could lead to tangible gains, and sadly they are still over looked like they always have been.

I disagree. People are visual. They like things that are pretty to look at, but they're also scrooges and don't want to pay a lot. If it was pink with green polka dots I'm sure that it would be a different story because it would LOOK different.

No different than how people who are good looking get more dates, a nice looking car will sell faster at the same price than a crappy looking one, etc. people are visual.

I might not have been very clear. I'm not saying color mutations are worthless anymore, just that the value is most likely novelty value, and personally I don't think that gives a new mutes nearly as much potential value as they had when they were viewed as a new color to bring to market. If you adjust the numbers for inflation, $7000 is a steal compared to what previous mutes have gone for, and I think that reflects my point.

Blacks used to go for thousands, when they were new, even standards at one points were there about, it's about supply and demand. There is probably very little demand for a mutation that doesn't look any different than an animal that you can get for $100 a million different places, one reason the market is down is probably because of hobby breeders increasing and ranchers decreasing. Hobby breeders usually don't breed for pelting and wholesale, ranchers do. Ranchers don't usually breed for pets, hobbiests do. With the increase of hobby breeders and decrease of ranchers the value of chins has decreased in many ways due to the increase of supply and availability.

This is not a "new color", it's a new variation IMO. Nothing about it from what I can see ( and I have not seen it in person ) differentiates it from a dominant white other than it is out of two standard parents. I've talked to people who know more than me, and they have their theories that vary, but I guess the main question is, is there demand. I can easily say a new car went for this much x amount of years ago and compare it to this car today I can get new and say yes the new car now is a good deal, but they are not the same car, and not in the same era. It's like comparing apple pie and apple sauce, kind of the same, but really not.

ETA: the problem with whites on a pelting market is inconsistency of the pattern and colors. Unlike the notorious gorgeous pattern of a standard garment, it's very difficult to find enough properly matched pelts in white it complete a garment without it looking like a white and grey appy horse.

It's not just about its color, though, which is what Jeff was getting at. It can't really be evaluated decently from just a few photos, but it looks to have a good crop of fur. If this white does not have the cottony fur or is not prone to casting yellow like the Wilson white, it will be worth keeping around.

And if not - nature doesn't poop out a new viable mutation everyday. In my opinion, it's worth breeding just to keep it in the gene pool, even if that means it's meant for a select handful of breeders and never to see the barns of most. Novelty or not, at least we have it.

I understand what he is saying, but I'm referring to it's value as seen by the quickly growing majority of breeders today.

Not to mention the biggest part of any of these phrases... IF. For all everyone know it will never reproduce itself and will be simply an anomaly that is unable to be passed on. Cottony, yellow, and weak fur is all something that a good white should not have, no matter what.

I've never said we should toss it aside, but without any proof of what it will do, or what it may or may not provide as a plus then it's just like buying a lottery ticket. It may provide a perfect pelt, and it may produce offspring that has an internal defect that 90% of the offspring die before 8 weeks... no way to know.

Agreed. There's much to be seen about what this "mutation" is and does. I'm highly curious about it and interested in the results.

only if this could possibly create dominant homo whites.

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By that, I meant it would not possess the lethal factor!

If it is a dominant white that has the capability to breed with other white and possibly produce that Homo Dominant white, that to me is where this animal could hold value. This way we could possibly breed high quality white to white, like Vin Somavia is breeding high quality beige to beige so we can avoid upgrading via the ever-darkening quality standards.

According to Brent Poley, the reason whites have no pelt value is that they are essentially the same as white rabbit pelts, which are often sold for $10. But back to this animal, I am not saying that the animal is worthless and I'm not saying that further genetic research should not be done on it. I am just saying that, to me, the animal is barely worth $500, let alone 14 times that!

I'm going to have to talk to Brent... because chin fur and rabbit fur aren't the same... lol

For looks, a white rabbit pelt would have a fuller look though.

Other wise, Dan's last statement sums up how I feel, he just says it better than I've been trying to blab out, lol.