GSC with malo

Riven said:

Yes, some ranchers say that, don't shoot the messenger.

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I apologize if you felt I was shooting the messenger. That was not my intent.

Riven said:

Here I go, prepare to crucify me, but I am not alone when I say, I'd rather put down 4 chins than grow them, care for them, and spend money on xrays every 6 months to a year to see if they might be developing malo. and so on, that is money I could be spending on healthy animals.

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But from all you know, those are healthy animals.

Riven said:

why would they want to even GIVE someone a chin knowing it has over a 50% chance of dying before 5 years with a broken hearted family who's probably spent THOUSANDS, yes THOUSANDS to care for until it's in so much pain they put it to sleep, or worry that they won't be cared for adn suffer.

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I was under the impression that it wasn't known what the percentages were for a kit from a line where one malo case has shown up to get malo. Is the "over a 50% chance" a known figure?

Riven said:

Linda you say you "just want to learn" but then you argue with what people say. What I do, is not what you do, and none of it might be what other people do. Many people, people with tons of knowledge and years and years of experience don't come to the forums because they don't want to put up with people telling them they are wrong, or what they do is wrong, or it's bad that they pelt, or that they put down a whole line of malo chins " on the chance they'll develop it to". All of this knowledge is not gained because some people can't accept that their way is not the only way, nor is it always the right way.

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I'm not trying to argue. I know there will be people with different breeding philosophies. I have developed mine over the course of many years of breeding for show. You will have developed yours, and others will have developed theirs. And hopefully you're not attributing all of those problems to what I'm saying. I have no problem with people who pelt chins. It doesn't mean I would ever do it, but I don't have problems with those who do.

Riven said:

Another thread discussed what a rancher is, a rancher is this. They don't spend a lot to keep one chin alive when they can't use it, that is the business aspect of it. Sometimes it's not about one chin... sometimes it's about all the chins, the betterment of the breed.

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I am all for betterment of the breed. As a matter of fact, that is my main goal as a breeder. I don't understand how putting down kits and/or adults from malo lines who show no signs of malo has anything to do with betterment of the breed. If anything, I would think that understanding how many kits or adults develop malo from such situations might actually help the breed. And I am absolutely not against putting down a chin with malo. Once malo shows up, it's an entirely different situation.

Linda

Nan, I am so sorry this is happening to you. You have such beautiful chins and I hope that none of the others from that line develop malo.

I agree with tunes on this one. If a chin develops malo, in most cases I would euthanize. Problems with roots or bad misalignment is not something you can fix and maintain long term quality of life.

Lazy chewers can develop spurs and elongated teeth. This can be treated with only one or two filings and closer monitoring of the diet (less pellets, more hay). Not an animal you want to breed still, but they can live long and happy lives.

However I would not euthanize an animal on the prospect that they might possibly develop malo down the road. That same animal might possibly happily live to be 25 years old. Who am I to take that away from them? Most likely, I'd keep the animal with me or send them to someone I trust, even if it meant years of searching for the right home.

I guess the only one I can breed is CC I just want to get that correct. I probably won't breed CC either since her and Grumpy are very close. That was my entire show line.

Awesome x-rays, thanks for sharing. Sorry you are having to go through this.

Are you coming to the CA show?

I'll be attending the show with 1 chin from a different line that I just started. He was born 12/01/08. He took a 2nd place at the Modesto show this past March. He has a full brother born 09/10/09 he's too young to go.

I'm not a vet but I have spent a considerable amount of time looking at chin dental Xrays (sadly many of them rescue chins) - I hope you don't mind me commenting on what I see on them? I concur with much of what Nicole has already said.
From looking at those Xrays I have to say that the only chin who looks to have good teeth at this moment in time is CC.
If you run your fingers lightly under Mr Grump's jaw, can you feel bumps? It looks to me like the lower roots might be near the jawline. Same with Augusta - but it is always hard to judge from small photos when you can't assess the angle properly. Augusta's upper roots are worth keeping an eye on as they are a little long and her back 2 molars don't look to be aligned quite right.
The roots look to be diverging as well in some of the xrays - they are not straight but splay out.
On Mystyc the teeth to watch are the very back molars.



Malocclusion philosophy wise I'm with Peggy. I give chins a chance at life and as long as there is quality of life then I see no reason to PTS. I have many criteria by which I judge QOL and when I think the time it right I will always PTS - my philosophy is "rather a minute too soon than a second too late". I certainly see no reason why offspring should be PTS if they have no problems but I can also understand why some people do - it's just not in my nature to be that way. The flip side of that is people who keep chins alive for selfish reasons.
Pulling lines to me is about removing chins from breeding and does not involve euthanasia unless the chins develops malocclusion symptoms, has been Xrayed, treated, and is losing QOL.

But from all you know, those are healthy animals.

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And for all I know they are not. If I'm going to hold poss. malo kits then shouldn't I hold poor furred animals too, because they might be breed by someone and create more bad furred kits, same with poor size or color, etc. This is the ranching aspect of it, stores don't keep clothes in the back room just "in case" they come back into style. I run my chins as a business, holding un-breedable chins just in case is bad business, and for how long, sometimes malo turns up in a year, sometimes it takes 8... so how long until I feel safe sending them to a home. Whether it be finding them a home trusted to care for them, euthanizing them, keeping them personally for pets, or pelting them... I can't find any reason that is an economical business discussion to keep those animals in my chin house. I have two types of chins here, pets and breeders. My pets are pets, and my breeders are a business. Sometimes chins from breeders end up at pets, but my house chin number is usually higher than I'd like it to be as I often have rescues as well. This might make me cold hearted, but this is the way of a rancher ( of any kind of animal), that is the difference between a hobby breeder and a rancher. I'm pretty sure that top ranchers did not get to the top of the Nationals table housing malo chins just in case.

I was under the impression that it wasn't known what the percentages were for a kit from a line where one malo case has shown up to get malo. Is the "over a 50% chance" a known figure?

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50% is my guessed number, I'd rather be high than low.

You say you're not trying to argue, but in many of your threads that seems like that's what you're doing...