The "Big Boys"

So, wasn't sure where to post this...as most will know on here, many of the older ranchers (with known quality) are retiring. This will hopefully be more of an informational thread, but as stated...not sure where to post!

Who are the "Big Boys" in breeding and quality these days? I'm not just talking numbers here people, I'm talking top show awards (consistently) from east coast to west coast?

Who are your "top picks" when you need to purchase a quality animal...give specifics on what colors you go to which ranchers for!

I think this is in the right section as it can become a big debate over which rancher to go to for which mutation or who to go to for standards.

Personally, I will get beiges from La Paloma (Bowen) and also light to medium standards from them. For darker standards or black velvets I go to Bill Booker, but I would very much like to get some animals from Mark Miller, Hummel, Joe Brown, and the Merritts. I'm sure there are others but I've been working my butt off all day and I'm tired so I'm sure I'm forgetting some people.

There are also "smaller" ranchers that I like to get animals from. I have a standard male from Sumiko and I absolutely love him and the quality he has produced for me so far. I'm also planning on getting some standards and black velvets from Shahna as she has VERY good quality.

Ron Hummel tops my list. Nice, nice, nice animals IMO.

I can't really say anything as I have no one to really compare to. The only "lg" rancher I have seen animals from are Ryersons and Baars. I am hoping to get a couple from Mark Miller at Nationals but would love to see Hummel and Merritts animals too. Actually I would love to see them all.

There are still several breeders in the states that consistantly produce quality and continue to strive for it. Who is the best to go to for an animal? That depends on what you're buying and what you have to breed it with. Some breeders lines don't cross well with others. Understanding what qualities you have in your own animals will benefit you the most when looking for an animal to purchase to continue to improve your over-all qualities in your animals. You could buy the most expensive, gorgeous animal from the most accomplished breeder and take it home and mate it to your animals and have the offspring be lesser quality then both parents because the genes don't "click" with each other. Usually, this is because your using 2 different fur types, or body types, or gene types animals. Selecting a quality animal that is closest in type to what you have will usually work the best for you. That comes from understanding and evaluating quality in your own animals as well as knowing where to, or who to, look to for an animal that compliments and matches up to the type of animal you have and the qualities your trying to improve. It's really not about who you buy it from, it's about knowing what you need and knowing how to recognize it when you see it. I went to a show in Oklahoma once to buy a female standard. I knew what male I was going to use her with, had evaluated him and studied his pedigree. I went to the breeder that had animals related to my male's lines. He showed me 4 or 5 females he had for sale. All of them were 1st place or higher that day except 1 that got a 2nd. He said to me "you probably don't want her, she got a 2nd" I looked at her, I liked her body type, and her even veiling, and I recognized her lines as "matching up" with my male's. I chose her and everyone thought I was nuts for buying a 2nd place female when I could have chose 1 of the ones that placed higher in the show for the same money. I knew why I selected her and felt I made the right choice. The next year I showed her first born son to that male and he was the 2007 ECBC National Grand Show Standard. That breeder that I bought both parents from had never produced a National show winner. It's not about who you buy it from, it's about recognizing what you need and knowing when you see it.

If price were not a consideration...

For extra dark standards and blacks, I'd go to Hummel.
For violets, Silkrhein.
For sapphires, Ryerson. Or Cara in CA.
For beige... Lemler and La Paloma.
For ebonies, Wendy.
For whites, Becky or Ritterspach.

For anything lighter than an extra dark standard, I'd shop around. There are a lot of smaller breeders all over the country with really exceptional animals. Jessica Godin among them, and I know Tiffany Yarboro will have some really nice stuff coming, and I would LOVE to get some standards from the California girls out this way - Sumiko, Shahna and Tab. Becky West, Paul K., Alicyn Cross, Lemler, Ryerson, Jay Firebaugh, and Jags have some good animals as well, and there are some from further west like Mark Miller, the Merritts, and Joe Brown that I would like to have a look at. I am leaving many out, but those names come to mind. As for what I purchase, it would depend on what I'm looking for specifically and who has it available.

mark miller said:

There are still several breeders in the states that consistantly produce quality and continue to strive for it. Who is the best to go to for an animal? That depends on what you're buying and what you have to breed it with. Some breeders lines don't cross well with others. Understanding what qualities you have in your own animals will benefit you the most when looking for an animal to purchase to continue to improve your over-all qualities in your animals. You could buy the most expensive, gorgeous animal from the most accomplished breeder and take it home and mate it to your animals and have the offspring be lesser quality then both parents because the genes don't "click" with each other. Usually, this is because your using 2 different fur types, or body types, or gene types animals. Selecting a quality animal that is closest in type to what you have will usually work the best for you. That comes from understanding and evaluating quality in your own animals as well as knowing where to, or who to, look to for an animal that compliments and matches up to the type of animal you have and the qualities your trying to improve. It's really not about who you buy it from, it's about knowing what you need and knowing how to recognize it when you see it. I went to a show in Oklahoma once to buy a female standard. I knew what male I was going to use her with, had evaluated him and studied his pedigree. I went to the breeder that had animals related to my male's lines. He showed me 4 or 5 females he had for sale. All of them were 1st place or higher that day except 1 that got a 2nd. He said to me "you probably don't want her, she got a 2nd" I looked at her, I liked her body type, and her even veiling, and I recognized her lines as "matching up" with my male's. I chose her and everyone thought I was nuts for buying a 2nd place female when I could have chose 1 of the ones that placed higher in the show for the same money. I knew why I selected her and felt I made the right choice. The next year I showed her first born son to that male and he was the 2007 ECBC National Grand Show Standard. That breeder that I bought both parents from had never produced a National show winner. It's not about who you buy it from, it's about recognizing what you need and knowing when you see it.

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I agree with what Mark said. Shows help us learn what to look for in an animal but they don't teach us how to breed for those qualities on a consistent basis.

Good answer, but assuming you know how to pick...and know what you're looking at and looking for LOL!

What I'm saying is, certain lines have certain qualities. You (Mark) yourself said that certain lines do not tend to pair well. Likewise, I think certain qualities run in certain lines. At an Atlantic Chapter 5yrs ago I could go down a row before they'd made the list of owners...and tell you who owned what animal by appearance. I'm sure for any quality you can go to any given good breeder and find what you're looking for...but for those who don't go to just one breeder for all of their stock, why do you go to whichever buyer?

It's not about who you buy it from, it's about recognizing what you need and knowing when you see it.

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This.

.. and many producers don't show.

As far as current breeders, should I want to go darker I have been nothing but absolutely impressed with the CLP animals out of Canada. Blazing white bellies, nice tops, longer larger bodies and just all around nice temperaments. Very consistent animals. They also cross very well with mutations where many standard lines don't.

Unfortunately the herds that have carried the animals I need have gone by the wayside or changed breeding direction in favor of a much darker animal. With Ronda going out I'm loosing my last source of clear light standards.

for those who don't go to just one breeder for all of their stock, why do you go to whichever buyer?

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You see them with something that you know will benefit and improve an animal. Sometimes you take a guess based on the look of that one animal in front of you and as you get better at working with the various lines it pays off more often.

Like you said - you can often walk down the line and pick who bred what. If I see something I like I will pick it up regardless of who bred it or how it did at show. )

Usually, the key to buying the right animal is knowing what specific quality or trait you need to improve the most in your existing animals. Once you've determined what that is you can either select the breeder that has consistantly shown animals with that trait or you can go to a show and select the animal at the show that is the best available example showing the desired trait or quality. 10 years ago we were consistantly getting beaten on the show table by animals that were larger then ours and had whiter bellies and bars. We went to a claiming show hoping we would find an animal there that would be a stand out example for these qualities without narrowing our choice to a specific breeder. We found a male there Friday night that had a striking white belly and bar so we claimed him right away. During the show another male caught our eye for his size, conformation, even veiling. We knew the breeder of him consistantly had big size in his show animals. We claimed him to help with size. Those 2 males were bought for $200 each back in 2001. They both bred true to the qualities they exhibited. We always had good blue color on top in our animals. Within 3 years of using these 2 males we added size and whiter bars and bellies to our blue color lines. By 2004, we suddenly could compete with anyone in the country with our standards. Between 2004 and 2009 we produced 3 ECBC Nat'l GSC's, 3 ECBC RGS standards and dominated the shows around the midwest and down south. Almost all of our top show winners and the majority of our show strings were related to those 2 males during that span. I've also gone to specific breeders to buy animals because of what I'd seen them show previously and usually they would never quite have what I was hoping for at that given time. I'd usually buy the best one they offered at that time because I had already decided that was who I was going to buy from and when I'd get it home I usually wasn't happy with it or it didn't work right with my existing animals. Openly evaluating every animal available and carefully choosing the best one to fit your needs will usually attain the best results in the end. The breeder is usually just a reference point in being able to back up the quality you see in their animal. Have they consistantly shown that quality in other animals they've produced at shows? If so, then you know that trait should be strong in their lines and carry to the offspring of the one your buying. This is what has worked best for me in selecting the right animal to buy.

If I had to choose what breeder for what color I'd go to LaPaloma (Gary Neubauer) for standards (to get some of my really good lines back) and beiges, Wendy Torgensen for ebonies and black velvets(Somavia lines), whoever has Shoots lines for black velvets, Somavia lines for whites, Jags for violets, and Ryerson for sapphires.

Good thread. I have a couple of nice whites, beige and an ebony from ryersons, standards and blacks from shoots lines, one eb from jags, an eb from hummel, tan from circle M, and a couple I cant remember off the top of my head. I would love to have a few more Hummel animals. I tend to take into account the breeder for just credibility purposes - I will buy anything I like as long as it comes from a good source.

Threads like this keep me thinking of expanding my ebony line. I am getting fantastic animals, but I just need more space and to hypnotize the hubby LOL - It's hard to really compete "and be known" with only 15ish breeding animals, although I was really proud I got on the final MCBA Nationals table this year with only one chin in the show - I hope one day I can be added to the top of the list

Mark what different breeders lines do you think compliment each other and what ones do not? I know you would base in on individual animals, but in general. Shoots has that longer fur, Dark Star short fur, etc.

Cheryl, that is a really difficult question to answer. 10 years ago there were many closed line herds (meaning breeders that established their own lines and had common type of animals without bringing in outcross lines from other breeders). Now, there are so many new breeders trying to build and establish their own lines using many different outcrossed lines from different breeders. There are very few breeders left that produce a common and uniform type of chinchilla consistantly throughout their offspring. There are still a few out there that come to my mind: Ron Hummel, Ralph Shoots, Bob Merritt, Dark Star herd, even in these mentioned you may find a few outcross lines in their pedigrees. Without having a pure average type example from every established well known breeder and crossing their lines together it is impossible for me to answer the question of who's lines work best or worst when crossed. You and I could both go to the same 2 established breeders and buy 1 animal each from them and my pair could work great together and your pair could be a big disappointment. There is no general rule that holds true when working with outcrossed lines in breeding. I've had the best luck selecting animals that were similar in type (i.e.fur length, body, overall appearance and quality, etc.) that complimented each others minor flaws. When your able to evaluate and recognize those things in your own animals and in the ones your buying and you don't try to pair up 2 drastically different types or quality of animals, you'll usually find outcross lines that work for you and that you're happy with. You can go out and tell everyone Joe's lines work great with Bob's lines based on your results but that doesn't necessarily mean it will work for the next person that mates a Bob animal with a Joe animal.

Mark,
I thought that if 1 animal had longer type fur and 1 had the shorter type fur that the offspring would be somewhere in the middle, which I thought would be good, but you have better results with breeding similar types? If you breed longer fur type to longer fur type, would it run the risk of getting too long? I guess that wouldn't be an issue if both animals had dense fur. Also if you have 1 animal that is really blocky and another that has every other quality, but not blocky, wouldn't that blocky animal compliment the other in breeding? So, if you have an animal with a longer body type, breed to a longer body type? I have always paired animals together to compliment each other's differences, so this is a new concept to me.

mark miller said:

If I had to choose what breeder for what color I'd go to LaPaloma (Gary Neubauer) for standards (to get some of my really good lines back) and beiges, Wendy Torgensen for ebonies and black velvets(Somavia lines), whoever has Shoots lines for black velvets, Somavia lines for whites, Jags for violets, and Ryerson for sapphires.

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La Paloma purchased Shoots herd I am not sure if it also included the blacks.

I find this thread pretty interesting.

You are right on Cheryl. I didn't mean all characteristics had to be the same in order to improve overall quality. If you put a really blue animal with a animal that is a little down in color, you'll usually get offspring with color in between the 2 parents color. If you put blue color with blue color you're setting that gene in stronger to the offspring most of the time. What I meant by using 2 animals with similar characteristics you know those characteristics should be passed on and set in stronger to the offspring which allows you to hone in on a certain characteristic that you're trying to improve. When you use 2 animals with many different physical characteristics you get offspring somewhere in the middle of all the different characteristics leaving many more variables to deal with.

My animals all have Bowen, Shoots, Somavia, Joe Brown and Dark Star in the background. I was fortunate enough to get my hands on Somavia's Blacks at the end of last year and have already seen some phenomenal animals growing out.

As far as the West Coast goes, you can't beat Dark Star standards for color and texture and Bill Booker has great size.

As far as the small breeders go on the West Coast, Sumiko has very nice Standards and Beiges and Tabitha has very nice Standards as well. We can't forget RCR, I have one GSC from her that constantly produces outstanding offspring.

The animals that Hummel had at last years Nationals were amazing and I am hoping to pick up a few next year.

Shahna said:

We can't forget RCR, I have one GSC from her that constantly produces outstanding offspring.

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Agreed! I love Sarah's quality as well, in fact I will be getting some chins from her if you don't steal them all first!

There is also Tiffany in NC who has some awesome, dark animals and some very nice mutations.